Nobody wants a website. They want results!

all right well welcome everybody to the

first non keynote session of mid camp

you could have chosen you came in this

room so I'll give you a second if you

are in the wrong room this is what we're

talking about today which is of course

all about the command line

no I'm Duane I will get back to fancy

I'm bitter to me a bit I actually this

is outdated now I am now a developer

advocate that is my new title over

Pantheon we'll get back to that why I

feel qualified to talk about this stuff

is I've been working in sales and

marketing since 2005 and I have learned

everything the hard way I beat my head

against the walls until either my head

broke or the wall broke or finally a

manager pushed me out of the way and say

go around

I'm working an open source primarily

back in the Java mills Java where

Middle's JavaScript I know sorry

Java middleware stack days back when I

worked at a place called terra cotta

open-source bpms you might know what

bpms is exactly and then I got into

Drupal and today is three years of me

gaming talks at camps my very first talk

I ever gave was at mid camp 2016 so 40

talks later Here I am outside of this

stuff I love improv Esther actually was

doing last night was awesome awesome

improv in this town I love comic books

and web comics hit me up about that

stuff I just gotta admit him so if

anybody let's talk about knitting

I would love to crochet specifically I

would love to talk about that and

karaoke some people already dubbed

ripple karaoke last night Saturday night

for sure let's go hit up some karaoke

you can always hit me up on Twitter

MC Dwayne and my website since you'd win

and of course you can always reach out

to me officially at Pantheon and I have

a request greatly appreciated because

it's just something I'm doing alright

not for that I work for Pantheon if you

don't know Pantheon we have a booth

downstairs and we'll tell you all the

fine details

Steve purchased here they need them from

an Theon myself drew Burton's on his way

and we're happy to all about our hosting

platform I can handle any size use case

and give you awesome tools for your

teams so you can do things better look

quick question I'm curious II was

actually in this room so one two three

shout your name one two three nice to

meet you already and where are you from

where's your hometown what are you three

originally is that where you originally

from alright raise our hands for the

next piece is who here considers

themselves a developer all right who

here considers themselves a designer who

here considers themselves a business

owner correct who here considers

themselves some way shape or form

involved in the business side of a

business alright anybody here need a

website built attacker after they

capture this so why am I talking about

something that might be controversial on

a surface level well turns out I was

giving a talk at WordCamp Baltimore

about the discovery process and during

that talk someone asked a question

really made a comment about the purpose

of a website was to unify a brand and

that's what a website did and so gonna

go back for a second and I had to say

respectfully disagree I don't agree with

that premise like a website doesn't do a

thing a website does whatever you

specifically want to do and half the

room did this and just agree to thing

violently and the other half did this

and I realized in that moment that

there's a conversation that it needs to

be had with this a mighty be all no all

expert on this absolutely not I think

honestly collectively in

you all have more experience than I

could possibly have in my lifetime this

just has to be true it's just the age

and diversity in this room you you know

what you're talking about

on this from aspects that I will never

see and only hope to comprehend as I go

through my life experience I like this

picture because it's the overlapping

bubbles that reminds me of I should put

it in this deck impostor syndrome with

imposter syndrome we always feel like

everyone knows so much more than we do

but no everyone knows a little tiny

piece and collectively it makes up this

universe of knowledge that no one person

can ever have in their head same thing

is true here we can have a conversation

together that will add up to more

knowledge than I can ever put in a slide

deck than I could ever present by myself

if you gave me three hours to talk so

let me get to Q&A and I'm gonna actually

get through my slides not too long of a

span of time so we can have enough time

to have that conversation so I want to

hear from you all I know it's going to

be bad for the recording so if you can

all yelled that would be great but I

think it's important so I will be asking

you to speak up so be ready to do that

especially business owners business

people and developers well oh yeah I

forgot to ask any project managers in

the room awesome PMS I love you all yes

oh you know what I want

developer all in one bucket insight

builder I think is part of the

development process well let me ask

though that's a fair question how many

people consider themselves site builders

awesome I consider myself one too I

really do i I don't touch PHP at all but

I build sites but before we get to all

that it's not lunchtime yet with more

it's a sandwich I'm back there all right

let's get this guy a sandwich no before

we get too much further here you go

as soon as many uh further reporting

here here's your sandwich you can see

it's got bread it's got onions and

lettuce lettuce on demand meet some

reference bread are you satisfied with a

sandwich like this no oh you know what I

know exactly what's wrong everyone don't

worry nobody likes vegan cheese nobody

really likes onions in a lot less on a

little bus crunch how about that all

right

so what's that to do with anything

because I talk to a lot of developers in

my life that is all developer advocates

what I do and a lot of times I think we

people get into the spiral of well if I

just changed this now the client will be

happy I just change listen the client

will be happy the clients like I'm not

happy clients if they were able to

better articulate it we wouldn't have

jobs because they would be able to say I

need this exact thing done in a robot

could do it but they're not that good at

that they can say I am happier I'm sad

so our job to make them happy is to

align expectations with results in a way

that everyone at the end of day is very

very happy with this situation because

if you don't line these things up like

you get some bad scenarios like yes ayuh

made you a red monster cake with googly

eyes but I guess it's not copyright

infringement at that point and people

get angry people take this stuff

personally and I've never quite

understood that it's the internet like

that's once and zeros being turned off

and on like we are once being turned off

and on

I guess correct but people get angry

about this stuff and the unfortunate

necessity agree talk to a lot of other

people and we end up as an industry as

our roles with a bad reputation not just

an awesome song from Joan Jett but for

real consequences this I was having

coffee with one of my friends in Silicon

Valley area in San Francisco and this is

almost verbatim quote about a project

where he was spending a quarter million

dollars

they got to the end of initial discovery

they signed off all right and then it

dawned on him what exactly are you guys

delivering in six months how I know I'm

gonna be happy and he got irate with the

developers and said why didn't you do

your jobs and tell me how I was gonna be

happy why didn't you do that and I'm not

saying everyone ignores this part of the

world of like figuring out that part but

I think that comes from the fact that we

are in our role we have a role to do and

it's developer it's designer this is a

developer in my world of view of when I

Google developer this came out there but

what clients often think they're buying

from this is this they think oh I'm

buying this service so all this other

stuff just comes with it like yeah of

course you're gonna create content for

me no that's my favorite way to get out

of any kind of anybody ask me to build a

website like what's your client all

right concert strategy and then it's

looking to blank like get one and I'll

be back to you and I've never had anyone

come back except very proud of this my

sister I told her to go start blogging

if you're like Ted blog entries like can

we post now like yes we can your website

but anyway this mismatch of we think

we're doing this but they think we're

doing this at least a lot of problems so

I think how we solve this is we got a

step back from from this seat for a

second and say what am I really doing

here because if you look at it in the

frame of here's my box is me and my box

solving the problems that they're trying

to solve they should probably know and

we're very limited in what we can do

like as a designer I don't feel

comfortable going and asking for more

money directly from the client but if

the scope creep happens somebody's got

to do that am i working by myself should

I go tell someone this way set back say

I'm trying to solve this fundamental

need for a client oh we can get there I

know how to do that this is a human

being outside of my box so that's why I

like this quote from

cadance our Candace we got to think

about what we're actually trying to

accomplish my backgrounds in sales in

marketing so I've seen everything

through the concept of funnel and

process so that's what the really

interesting today is talking about is

how we leverage this thing anybody know

what this is who doesn't know what this

is awesome thank you very much for the

people that raised your hand bare like

this and then what I also see because

you're not long I was in a training

class for a sales role and I had never

seen one of these before so we all see

it someplace first very quickly project

funnel sales funnel replace the word

there and funnels a funnel we have a

group of people in the world called

leads we have their email addresses

maybe the phone number and name but we

have some way to contact them so if

everyone in this room gave me your email

address you would all be my leads and

then I would go through some kind of

process to see do you need anything that

I delivered that anything that I sell

some people would say no some people

will say yes of the people that say yes

I'm gonna ask a series of questions say

can you actually afford this we'll get

into all that I qualify them I don't

those qualified people I go through a

process of figuring out exactly what

they want can I do the exact thing that

you specifically need and want and can

pay for it and that process of all

discovery the end of that we end up with

a proposal proposal goes true for

pyramids we're gonna go sheet back and

forth a bunch finally we get to

agreement and get paid with the delivery

and we're maintenance we're old and we

look back through the funnel that's

every process in the world related to

sales and marketing is basically this

from my mentors I learned that sales

marketing all of this business ii stuff

really has to be a marriage of science

and art i couldn't find one that says

sales in the middle and i thought it was

too pretty to mess this up

but it's truth if we approach this as

there are certain mechanical things i

can put in place that repeatedly do the

same thing i can get through those parts

very very fast and let those mean plenty

of time to do the art of the sale which

is not today's topic at all so we'll

leave that one along so when talking

about this process what am i talking

about today where am i talking about why

people don't want a website they want

results those results need to be early

established and i think it's in a

qualification process the fine details

of course are in discovery we'll get to

that but the beginning of the process

the qualification process it's pretty

straightforward this is the classic

model bang - here is not her - Fant

really well shock balance is the basic

four things you need for a sale to be

done budget authority need timeframe if

you don't have these four things you

ain't gonna have a sale you might have a

transactional sale and I'm not talking

about transactional sales like for

instance if I said hey Mike would you

like to buy this class just say yes yes

give me a dollar you give me the dollar

I give you the glass we're done that's

the entire process but I kind of had

this but very very short that's not what

I'm talking about I'm talking about

sales that are complex that involve

multiple people that take time that lean

on things like what projects those kind

of deliverables marketing and strategy

initiatives those kind of things there's

other ways to do this as well Vance not

my favorite Islander Scotsman because I

went through Sandler training Sandler is

one of those sales technique trainings

you can take in the world and they all

kind of work but they all kind of point

to the same things money solution you

can do the thing but they all have the

word need in them almost

every qualification checklist you'll

ever see in your life has the word need

now I'm gonna confess to you as a sales

guy I always ignored need I think this

is true of almost all salespeople

because that's a salesperson what is the

most important one of this list yes yes

obviously if you have the money to pay

me well make the other things work your

authority you're talking but the fallacy

here is that in my head as a sales guy

on that end of those table you're

talking to me honestly you have a need

if you didn't have a need you wouldn't

talk to me

one of the nice things about bands is

because it is silent it is the

mechanical do you have this T up dis T

at this you have this and if you refine

this process you have a machine and it

just spits out qualified leads to the

other side and those people a large

portion of those should become proposals

in some portion that should become a

sale now again if we just say oh you got

money great let's put you through the

Machine we get to discovery Wow there is

so much so we don't know is it gonna be

a good discovery process can't can't

guarantee it will be so we need to focus

in on all of these timeline budget

Authority those are pretty obvious can

you buy this thing yes or no oh you

can't

good bye or I can I got to go ask

someone alright let's go ask them how

many people have ever been in a meeting

and someone says I need to go ask

someone this do you say fine I'll wait

and while you go ask

that's it some power moving sales but do

it so you need to ask for that oh wait

just stop talking and they will either

tell you they can't actually ask for it

or they'll go actually ask or they'll

say I'll have the answer by X that's

what you want those folks said I need

because this is the most neglected of

them so when we say need but we're

actually talking about is they need hit

a goal otherwise it's a want I really

think because if you want something you

might buy it if you want something for

your company you have to prove that that

has a benefit if you're doing something

that has a direct benefit that's really

a need all we need to do this I want to

do this because we might make more money

or we need to do this or we will lose

money which of those projects get done

the need one so when we talk about need

how many people stop and say hey you're

talking mind rate what are those

specific measurable attainable relevant

and time locked pools

anybody that's what we're here today to

do and hope you walk out of the room

thinking this in your head when you're

talking to people for the first time

about working with you to stop and say

hey you have specific things you're

trying to do right not just some vague I

want a website not just some vague I

think I should do this no you you have

measurable things that in the future are

gonna either be true or not

well at this quote I don't know if the

hundred percent true across all

spectrums but in sales and marketing it

have no idea to work yeah the websites

prettier yeah you definitely pumping out

more tweets yep content sure is sharp

and SEO friendly what does that mean

though what do we actually measure

luckily there's an entire industry and a

whole set of Sciences around this called

the key performance indicator this is a

wonderful wonderful shortcut term for

saying a bunch of things and it's a

horribly misleading term I'll explain

why in a bit but real question have you

ever asked anyone this at the beginning

before you get a discovery like when you

first meet them and they say I want to

do a project like great if you have your

KPIs defined you're gonna get a spectrum

of answers but most people are gonna

look at you with a blank stare be like

what are you talking about and if you

have to stop at that point and explain

what the heck a KPI is that's a much

different process much different sale

much different experience for everyone

than if you say do you have kpi's define

it say I'm glad you asked here's my

spreadsheet and a six-months here's the

numbers on one than a year I want these

numbers oh man I want to work that

person I want to figure out how to bake

and get there because man they've done

so much work

if they do have their KPIs defined

great let's go fine-tune those let's get

drilling what you mean by this let's get

to discovery right now because if the

others check out of course if you have

authority in timeline and money but this

is jump to discovery let's get to the

meat and bones of this if they don't

have those KPIs defined it's time to

change hats it's time to stop and say

well what you really need is a business

consultant at this point to define your

KPIs now if you want to change hats

yourself do it if you want to put on

your business management business

consultant hat go for it there's great

money in that industry but realize that

is a different hat than web developer

they can overlap your if you're working

on a large team you should have one of

these people like at your disposal say

oh you know business person here there

or a partner to work let's say oh you

need a business manager over there we'll

come back to that in a second

everybody asked so what are we measuring

on this project this is the follow-up if

they don't know what a KPI is I don't

know two KPIs oh so what are we

specifically measuring like what how do

we know when we're done how do we know

when you're successful this is a

discovery questions this isn't like

after they sign the contract this is

what it's people angry you signed a

contract then you're asking this this

should be before you get to the

discovery process like what he's

particular trying to measure oh that

metric that metric that metric I don't

know how to do that that's qualification

that's a machine you want to get through

as many of those conversations as fast

as you only can because you only have so

many hours in the day if you look at the

sales price sales funnel again like if

you start with a thousand people at the

top you might end up with five to ten on

a bad day one on a great day twenty

actual delivery that's pretty industry

standard for start with a bunch of leads

you end up with a few projects across

the board the more time you spend up

here by like by hand artisanally

qualifying someone the less time you

have here to actually do the art of the

sale which is the negotiation and the

actual crossing the eyes and going

through lawyers who argue about the word

as an indemnification non-stop you won't

spend as much time here as you only can

spend less time here and spend up here

as little as you possibly can so if they

don't know what they're measuring that's

problematic and we have to stop and say

well what are you measuring so let's

talk specifically about kpi's because if

you're gonna put on the business

consultant hat this is what you're about

to do if you're not this is what someone

else is gonna lead them through this

path or those go off on their own and

find a developer who thinks thing they

can do this and won't

so who disagree that these are awesome

web metrics to measure

these are great this is like literally

at Google top web team KPIs and this

list I mean and so on is mine but

there's a laundry list of things under

Google Analytics you should do these are

great guess what though

good marketing all right is that it is

that close to this mmm kinda kinda bad

news the people your sales this is their

KPIs

again I googled sales marketing all of

these just fill in a blank KPI and these

are like top 20 list I found and just

condensed and here's the worst part of

all the person who has ultimate signing

Authority and this whole process and the

person that the end of the day says yes

or no to rehiring you and doing more

work or recommending you or give me a

bad reputation here's there's this is a

very long way very long way from here so

to say it's a whole industry of to

itself it's a whole science unto itself

data science in business data science

specifically bi business intelligence

that's where it's before bi which is is

awesome the good new is about all of

this people been studying this for years

and there is some kind of formulation

you can work out it exists you can build

algorithms that do this that will take

you from KPIs you easily have access to

your web metrics that can get you to the

marketing ones how does this go from

here to there there's companies built on

this concept Salesforce has bought a

number of them

I don't know these things I'm gonna be

honest with you I know they exist

I have talked to people that know them I

have gone through processes where other

people have put them in place it's the

only reason I know they exist they work

something like this though do not take

this verbatim into your business and do

not blame me if they say this didn't

work I don't even know what baby and C

are in this list but it's something like

this like okay we add these metrics

together we divide by the southern

metric and that points in this KPI is it

gets you close close enough and then

there's other things you can add

together and again there's a whole bunch

of people that know what this actually

does it's something like this we measure

all these other kpi's together and

there's the business owner goals and

everybody's happy so the closer we can

get to answering this question with

their project the easier it is to get

land that project the happier they will

be at the end of the day because as

Alison manly said and enjoy black said

in their musical the spoonful of

research helps the stakeholder calm down

it's if you can always point back to

saying no no remember we're actually

meeting the business goal here

remember these this all adds up to what

we're actually trying to do the your

little goal is part of a bigger goal

that keeps your job in place and keeps

the company going that comes people down

a lot more than well I thought you said

this very different conversation so the

question is really do you the developer

or the designer the project manager you

don't put the other head on when you

realize that there are other things at

play here outside of the box you thought

you were in when you realize the box is

actually this big not this big for well

you can't see me at home I mean my hands

small him big so looking back this is a

limited list this was the first six that

came to my head five that came to my

head five

the good news is you can put this back

into your qualification process very

easily qualification checklist at the

end of the day should have every

question you think you should know the

answer to before you spend an hour on

the phone with someone they should be

able to answer these things around over

an email or in a less than twenty minute

call or just over beer so what's your

plan around any of these other areas so

let's plan our content strategy how many

people ask this in the discovery process

how many people asking the qualification

process good awesome

you always get a couple hands and it's

awesome do it right it's not your job to

write content unless it is people pay

good money for this I know people in the

WordPress side of the world that is an

entire job is contact creation and they

make it a little bit and it's awesome I

don't want to do that I personally don't

like writing content like that alright

for myself

design services how many clients assume

that design services are including with

any kind of web build all of them that's

the answer at some level they all think

this designers are amazing people that

do amazing work and I don't understand

it at all I like using their product

obviously but in fairness I made none of

these slides like the images I stole

them all from Google and technically

this is an academic talk so there we go

but yeah I had to ask but what is your

design strategy because if a client says

oh we just thought you would do it oh

that's a terrible answer it's also

terrible and say oh I got a cousin who

is in design school like great design

student has no idea what the web initial

works or oh we work with this design

firm XYZ over here and they you know

they do fortune 5,000 companies and oh I

think they referred you in such-and-such

works there

I would we'll have to work on that

project I don't even carry these details

like somebody a designer I know referred

me to something I'll take it I'll take

you right now but asking early enough

like hey what's your idea I'm in design

here cuz if they think you're gonna do

it great sell it to them if you can

project management is my favorite thing

that people assumes in a project by by

default a project will be managed

somewhere again I just Google project

management image and got this every

project will by default have some kind

of management it might be terrible

absentee management where everything

falls apart but how many people stop and

say hey so what's your project

management plan on this

that frees a lot of people in the tracks

they did not think like oh we're just

gonna manage all this like well I can

but again I asked earlier how many

people are project managers versus all

the other roles it is a completely

separate field it is a separate way to

engage with people like getting people

on track not the version control system

track the people on the right direction

with where this project needs to go is

hard work you're not getting into a code

you're not getting a design you are just

getting people on the phone at the right

point in time and that is hard work it's

hurting cats doing that on top of your

other work or as part of your services

that you're bundling together at no

additional charge that's madness charge

for project management it's part of the

thing or if they have a project manager

make sure you like their process if you

walk in and you've been doing agile

scrum you'll love it you've been

standardized out of your company for

years and you walk it it's like we use

waterfall and we have these very strict

restrictions you're gonna work with us

this way or you're not gonna work with

us that's a good time to walk and it's

good to find that out early as possible

because if they say you have to do this

this way and they tell you that before

you sat down for an hour on the phone to

do their discovery amen then you have

that hour free do you know do discover

with someone else or better yet have a

bunch of other qualification question

qualification conversations to get to

more discovery get to know really really

fast that's the whole point of this it's

up to you though if you want to wear all

of those hats if you want to put all of

those things on your shoulders do it do

you I can't tell you what's right or

wrong I could tell you stories the

people told me and my personal

experiences in all of this because at

the end of the day though we're we're

all trying to hit it goal every single

project needs to hit a goal

and that is the thing that we got to

drive that's the thing we have to

eventually come back and do and the

earlier we know in the whole process we

can do this or not and we can do this in

a way that we think will make them happy

based on real evidence in real science

well the happier they're gonna be the

more referrals we'll get the more repeat

business we'll get from them and

everyone will be happy because the end

the day nobody really wants a website

they want the things that website gives

them that's almost what I called this

they won't they gives them but there's

also a little better though really what

they really want to hit if they've know

how to articulate it or not is they want

to hit a KPI they might not know what a

KPI is but I guarantee you they want to

hit it in six months

you can measure a KPI in a year you can

measure a KPI in three years you can

measure a KPI you can't measure did you

like the site are you satisfied with the

work we did oh that's a big bucket of

worms and you don't want to spill KPIs

keep everything very nice box clean and

you hit it or you didn't you hit it you

didn't order and you're either on your

way to hitting it you got really close

and if we just put a little bit more

tweaks in we can get there and let's

keep going with this thing or man this

fella on the toilet we should just stop

it's gonna tell you pretty quick the

numbers will add up or they won't

that's that's all the slides I had get

them Dwayne I talked about all this

stuff but that would finally get to the

part that I enjoy the most of this talk

which is the conversation so I will

start it with the traditional Q&A start

like to anybody have any questions or

comments but I'm gonna turn that back on

you just so you know I know some of you

in this room and I'm gonna straight-up

ask you if you nobody else volunteers

with some information but this is the

one track where it is completely okay in

the Q&A to make a comment and not a

question so I encourage it with that

sure so knowing to capture these

qualified leads trying to get their

kpi's for project matters to then turn

that around to helping guide the

developers how do you translate those

KPIs until that small thing they need to

focus on keep them in the note that has

a great question

data should always point to specific

actions

the actual how do I interpret this to

what a developer does I can't give you a

firm answer unfortunately because that

is such a broad question it's like how

do you make a cake I there's a way but

this is actually everyone this room has

experience with this Joe I'll ask you

again buddy have you given customer data

products we've made for them doesn't

Hey exactly always pushing back on the

data and saying does the work we're

doing in the sprint if I could ramp just

for a second on scrum and agile I

I've seen enough talks on it been a

problem process enough now in my life to

think that a lot of time we're not

really doing it the right way we're

doing Minimum Viable Product and product

means it functions in some way but what

we really should be after is Minimum

Viable approvable value does this work

we did in the sprint give any value to

the client not does the widget turn on

and off don't turn off and off the

viable product yes it does does it move

the KPI up if it doesn't it shouldn't be

in the sprint it shouldn't be in the

work I'm not saying that's an easy

transition I've talked to people that

are near to of moving their team over to

agile and they're still struggling with

this like how do we tie these things so

it's not an easy road but it's a road

that you get much better clients with

and happier developers they know exactly

why they're doing a thing not just

here's a random work order great I can

do arena work order but oh oh this

actually moves their conversions up two

percent yeah I feel good about that this

does my experience all right other

thoughts on that one or other areas of

discussion so you say making really

making sure your developers understand

the KPI and what value they are really

delivering even when you break apart the

filters through the project manager

because it's not just interpreting what

we can see into their numbers it goes

the other way

they're not exactly trap door functions

like treptower functions they work one

way but they you can't get back the

other way

ital ssl works or TIA

TLS once you know the business goal now

we can dirt new in the math and that's

where that business analyst and the data

science comes in like oh here's the KPI

that can deliver can you increase uptime

can you increase page rank can you

increase these other kpi's you actually

have control over

well let's model the entire project

around that so when those increase the

project manager and the business people

can say oh these KPI is kpi's are going

up and these kpi's are going up so if

the math all works maybe we're wrong in

the math we need to adjust things but

that's a very different conversation

than oh man the project is bad adjusting

numbers is yeah fine tunable

other thoughts okay the need for two-way

communication because especially I think

in the technical knowledge is broader

with the developer role project

management have some the client has very

very little so when the need filters

down the developers say when you could

satisfy this need this way whereas a

client whatever photo them fucking than

I think that but yeah I might found that

the two-way communication everybody else

anybody feel different about that

all right I have a question for you all

and I would like to hear some opinions

on this

who here charges for a discovery process

awesome and of those people at what

point do you think qualification is done

when do you say oh I qualified this

person enough to ask them to go for paid

discovery or to people to say you want

to work with me we do a paid discovery

session and that's how we start the

process see if I do that I want upgrade

to Drupal 8 I want a new website why you

know in those are ease those are those

are so you're anyways even like 20 hours

like just a light discovery period

absolutely not everything about you can

be measured you know it's very serious

it's like I want to much much more in a

we're actually moving towards real goals

in two things both we work we still work

with a lot of clients

don't know I can't put into words

numbers what they eat and I can't always

blame them there's a lot of groups that

are doing important work where they're

not trying to settle some with something

so much easier to turn it into numbers

if at the end of the day is how many

people buy something and when you're

trying to spread awareness something

else and I was I was still before we get

to you I see a punk hands went up on

that one forget that III think it's

still tracked back to everything is

measurable like it was specifically with

the web field because we're doing things

that require electricity to make pixels

happen on a screen and either that pixel

did the thing that was supposed to do or

it didn't I really think this like ACLU

is a great example like they're not

trying to do a sale they're trying to

raise awareness around issues they're

measuring that awareness not you I'm

sorry I didn't say let us say to you

Human Rights Watch

David's can I remembers last names like

me scarboni anyway David from UC

international they specifically wanted

people in a certain region to understand

a topic better and they asked a bunch of

quizzes and we call the surveys and got

this information from them and they

adapted strategies around that

measurable master boot that those

numbers so I agree with you in life

there's a lot of things you can't

measure when it comes to projects

there's a KPI attached to it there has

to be otherwise we're never gonna really

know all right you had your hand up

first I think we know back there

I come from the nonprofit world and

different coalition's that the clients

will have this

vague idea that we want to spread

awareness we want to educate people on

human rights or whatever and their

conversation then becomes how do you

translate that into

real measurable numbers and really just

being qualifying or discovery talking

about okay this one method of we

increase page traffic or your subscriber

list or just helping or guiding them

towards identifying what number can we

use to see what we successful in this

campaign I like to hug back there I

think everyone's hand shot up I think it

was one two three four

that I spent X amount of dollars in

print material Renick all I did was

raise awareness heavy Mac spent that

money and put that towards a web project

for one year what is that appreciate

that so here's a question even with

measurable goals you know every day you

know that we're going to build this

really cool widget and people are going

to going to use it you're not going to

know if it's successful until after it's

been deployed

sure so after you exact so how do you

going in first questions going into the

project like if you don't hit that goal

that doesn't mean it's a oh oh

absolutely projects fail there's history

is full of lessons of really good ideas

that just horribly fail for some reason

like big ones prop to mind ecto coolers

like the most popular high seed product

of all like eventually stop selling

that's why they pulled it off the market

I could just fail dimensionally just ran

out of juice literally the Etzel on

paper Greek art that's maybe a terrible

example in the modern world we don't

think of things that like that should

have worked

why didn't that work so is this

foolproof 100% I'm absolutely not I'm

just trying to stop people the

pitchforks means to format it yet when

they are mad and you don't have a say

well this failed but here's the numbers

when we just these we can probably

adjust the thing versus I don't know why

I failed good luck that's a very

different perception of the market and

of what we're doing because that person

if you fail two or three times sure

let's get rid of them maybe that's a bad

firm fail one thing it was a bad idea

maybe I don't know you got a thought

yeah

along those lines iterations about right

especially if you have a process where

you're going with user testing and

throughout the design phase and then

even like heart attack being given at

that points to see what kind of

engagement you're going to get you even

go back further up in the process and

has the client actually done any

customer research like what kind of

customer research that they've done like

all that stuff kind of tells you upfront

and then figuring out like what you're

talking about

yeah viable value being verifiable by

you

yeah right so what that's missing almost

thing you can do is you know even can

you get a rate on top of the current

site you can do something like that

they're doing now or a manual process or

something in this work

you know isn't it for nonprofits

thinking about the can we do something

here save you some money in the process

but also increase the eternal mission

that's what nonprofits are there for

whatever their mission very specific

thing they're trying to accomplish it

can you help them increase the value

increase that engagement their

membership or whatever increase

engagement with their mission saving the

money right there yeah not every idea is

a great idea they can seem it on paper

but something just fall apart question

sir are you speaking from the client

side or like uh that's what like the web

team side okay to me and I think a

handful people that benefit from the

past it at some point in that early on

in the discovery process or towards it

or in that discovery process you're

going to write down what those goals are

and present those and there's going to

be an agreement like worked like long

before user testing development get

started there's an agreed upon

this is what we're doing and we agree

it's gotta meet these goals

contractually that's it like it's super

like that aspect of it is very simple

either we agree this is what we're going

to be moving forward project project

succeeds whether or not like in the long

term it fails or not because it's a bad

idea that's something separate but if

you if you haven't Riemann and they're

like address was like that's it oh yeah

there's a great talk I won't say the

exact names it's family-friendly camp

but it's called fu pay me find it on

YouTube I forget the name of the guy but

it is about contract it is literally

that like if you agreed to do a thing

and you did the thing you get paid

period doesn't matter if was a good idea

doesn't matter if it worked at the end

of the day doesn't matter if it met

their goals if they agreed to it on

paper they sign that paper you did the

thing you get paid

period so at some point back there at a

site gibberish

I mean I think

[Music]

but things like they have a whole team

of people who want to keep using Excel

spreadsheets for certain things they're

all used to it and

you know yeah that will always always

always happen I'm not going to give

another talk but today nobody wants a

website is about fine-tuning the

qualification process to get to knows

four people you really don't want to

work with as fast as humanly possible

then we want a discovery which is a

whole different field and I would argue

that with enough time in discovery which

is an ideal science guy scenario you can

recover that with the right questions

live like organizationally how do you

work somebody sits up early night

reminded me of this though you said it

something else again sort of brought it

up you can find this on my website MC

doing comm if you want to see the slides

or me give it somewhere else but um

point being if we're not asking

discovery questions of like so tell me

about the projects that have failed in

the past tell me about the last

developer you fired tell me about how

your organization works from clean your

office and their office down there and

you do that individually with every

single person on the team and you do

that collectively and see what answers

match that's a good discovery process I

you know close the six-figure deals back

in the job is my job my little where it

is like that was the key to it like that

was a complicated process where the

Board of Directors involved you have to

get everyone on the same page and that

is a process will they always tell the

truth

absolutely not expect them to lie will

they come up with surprise

left and right yes that is nature of

client work is this foolproof again no

you will always have problematic clients

I can't tell you how to stop that

because I don't know the answer to that

and I've never met anyone that does

anyone that claims they have that answer

I would be a little skeptical of because

people are people and people are weird

all right one more quick topic or thing

you mentioned it earlier I thought was a

good point is as salespeople we're

always trying to win the deal but

knowing you know it's best to walk from

it is I think a huge factor in this

thing else because if you hear something

maybe the client is being super vague or

they're not really like yeah maybe this

maybe that that's a probably project or

client that's going to give you more

headaches you can spend more time with

your head in this young man then you are

getting actually helping them and it's

tough that salespeople to realize that

and say hey Russ so I love a

qualification session over a drink for

over lunch because then if everything

goes wrong still got a drink or lunch

and even a waste that you didn't really

waste your time you had interesting

conversations but the faster you can get

to that knowledge point of and that's

the whole point of qualification is like

asking those questions like do you know

what you're doing if any idea what

you're doing that's an offensive

question but like so what keep you guys

trying to be people will be intimidated

by that question but it's a real

question if they do know the answer that

oh that's a very different customer but

walking away is hard somebody said it

Albert Adam silver is one of the core

committers for WordPress I've said some

talk once we come from a lot as

developers as small businesses we come

from a place of scarcity a lot like we

can't lose this customer what if we

don't get this gig what if we don't get

this next contract and we're talking

about the internet people still to this

day spend more on website development

per year than they do on all other web

advertising

like by IAB metrics it's like 200

billion persons like a hundred seventy

billions so a number like that now my

CEO Zack likes to use that number a lot

there's a ton of money here we if we

look at the whole spectrum of what I can

do in this market from a place of

abundance we want to get through those

nose as fast as possible to get to those

golden yeses and it might take you a

hundred nose it might take you a hundred

knows that you're saying no to refine

and say oh this client I know we're that

client the rest your life and everyone

will be happy as long as they have money

all right ten minutes he'll mark and I'm

told to wrap it up so I got to wrap it

up but hey thank you very much for

coming in the room